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8/99 There
Are Lots of Criminals Out There
by George Michael
8/18/99 NH Board of Auctioneers
by Harvey Schlesinger
8/19/99 Let the battle
begin
by Wilfred Morrison
8/20/99 Online Auctions
by Name Withheld by Request
8/24/99 The Great To-Be-Or-Not-To-Be-An-Internet-Auctioneer
Scandal of 1999
by Mr. and Mrs. Andrew Comendul - Manic Depression Antiques/Antiques
of the Depression Era
8/26/99 eBay and NH Licensing
Non-issue
by Cathy Sykes, New England Events Mgt.
8/26/99 Response to open letter
from the New Hampshire Board of Auctioneers
by Brad Dorsey, Hopkinton, NH
Rebuttal
Letter to NH State Board
by assyster.com
There Are Lots of Criminals Out There
by George Michael
According to the NH State Board of Auctioneers, there
are a lot of criminals auctioning without a license. The
internet has brought with it many moments of pleasure
as well as many moments of grief. According to the Board,
anyone who auctions merchandise for someone else in NH
is in need of a valid NH auctioneer’s license. The
Board feels this applies whether the merchandise goes
over the block or online. All of us await a test case to see
what happens. This may have far reaching effects as 27
States require auctioneer licenses and it will be interesting
to see how they react.
The NH Auctioneers Association is responsible for the
auction license law, having worked to see it enacted in
1969. There were some scoundrels from out of state operating
in NH and the only way they could be removed was
by putting in a law which stated reciprocity as the only
way an out of stater could get a license. If another State
did not have a license with which to reciprocate for
the NH auctioneer, none would be issued for residents of that
State. This did away with the problem. Since then, I
feel it has created another one. Your writer worked to have
the original license law passed in NH. For several years,
I have felt that it has outlived its usefulness. I would like
to see it done away with.
The original problem vanished and since then, various
rulings have made it mandatory that out of staters be
permitted auction licenses if they pass certain requirements.
This has opened the door to all — scoundrels as well
as responsible auctioneers. The original purpose of the
license was repealed. It seems the State wants to keep the
license to enrich its budgetary coffers.
Until this year, the fee was $100 for residents — it has
been lowered to $85. On top of this, an auctioneer must
furnish a $10,000 bond, which costs between $125 and
$150 for 3 years, depending on the bonding company. We
are enriching the companies. I do not know when a bond
has been called since 1969 — this has been money
down the drain. Some have wanted to raise the bond amount
— they must have stock in these companies as the
original intent of the bond has proved worthless and
expensive.
Large States like New York and Connecticut have no auction
laws. They have far more auctions and auctioneers
than we have in NH, yet one hears of no troubles in either.
Some feel that a Board is necessary to pass judgement
on accused infractions of the auction business. We have
the courts to settle such problems.
Actually, the Board has little control over auctioneers.
If one is stripped of his or her license, it is valid to hire
another auctioneer to open the sale, so this does not
stop the offending auctioneer from functioning. So, why do
we have a Board at all? It is a group of auctioneers
plus one outsider, who determine the offenses of other
auctioneers. There has been dedication on the part of
those who have served on the Board — but I suspect that
many who have served feel they could accomplish very
little.
In conclusion, I feel the problem of auction licenses
for those on the internet could easily be solved by removing
the license laws in NH and let the market system take
its course. We cannot close our doors to outside commerce
in this field any more than we can close them to other
endeavors.
We are in a new world, now, where the computer has improved
our lives and we must progress to the point where
we do not attempt to slow things down with unnecessary
legislation. Instead of treating traders as criminals, we
should encourage them to ply their trade here to keep
our commerce up to date. This will not hurt the established
auctioneer.
Already, there are reports of fraud, misrepresentation,
and misunder- standings in trading online. The market will
take care of the problems. There will always be the need
for auctioneers who set their tents up in the backyard
and sell. They must just learn to do the best job they
can to compete in this modern world.
Thursday, August 26,
It’s with great interest I’ve been following the Union
Leader story and your follow up review of the situation. My
first thoughts were "Who’s creating this flurry? Is this
a non-issue? Is there someone in New Hampshire who
doesn’t want to make money?"
I’m surprised for 2 reasons. I can’t tell from your story,
but this doesn’t seem to be effecting anyone in particular.
Is the New Hampshire Auctioneers Assoc. bringing suit
against someone? This seems to be a case of the great
"WHAT IF?"
The second and greater reason is because Ebay.com is not
an auction. From the material I’ve sent you on Ebay I
remind you about the first paragraph which reads:
"eBay is the World's Personal Trading Community.
eBay created a new market: efficient one-to-one trading in an auction format on the web."
Read that statement over and over. "They have created
a new market: on the web." When was the last time
you knew of someone creating some- thing so incredibly
new, different and exciting? Granted it is similar to an
auction because one by one people increase their dollar
amounts until the final selling price is determined but that
is where the similarities end.
Comparing ebay.com to a NH Auctioneer, is like comparing
UnRavel the Gavel to The New York Herald. Sure,
you’re both a newspaper and both a tabloid format, just
a world of difference. Don’t get me wrong. ebay, NH
Auctioneers, Unravel the Gavel and The New York Herald
all have their own important place in the food chain.
All successful business first recognizes their place
in the food chain then work with all tools they have available.
It would seem to me, people’s involvement with Ebay should
not be scrutinized under auction laws since no one
is participating in an auction. They are selling person
to person and I remind people the process is very slow. It
would take a skilled person 100 hours just to list 400
items (avg. sold by an auctioneer in any given sale) to say
nothing about the emails and follow up processing, mailing
etc. It would almost certainly stand to reason group
shops should also be guided by the same rules as the
general public since most group shops are owned as a sole
proprietorship status anyway. Why complicate things?
Does the NH Auctioneers Board remember this is the Live
Free or Die state?
When I jump in my mini-van with power windows, air-conditioning,
stereo & cruise control I never worry about
the wagon makers who were put out of business when Henry
Ford created a new market. Yes it changed the
world, but when we pack our van and go to Brimfield or
a Sykes show are we really dramatically different than the
village peddler who would go door to door selling second
hand wares. I’m sure many of the fears and excitement
that the village peddler felt when he saw the products
of the industrial revolution pounding down the newly laid
train tracks in the late 1800’s are the same fears and
excitement people feel now about the internet. Henry Ford
didn’t make wagon makers extinct. He did revolutionize
the world. Just as I’m sure the Internet auction format will
not force auctioneers into extinction, it will once again
revolutionize the world. Success will still be rewarded upon
those who great their daily routines with enthusiasm,
passion, open minds and lots of hard work and commitment.
Lighten up. Life is good.
Cathy Sykes
New England Events Mgt.
The recent open letter from the New Hampshire Board of
Auctioneers regarding Internet auctions is nonsensical.
The policy set out in that letter — that people selling
stuff on Internet auctions are required to have auctioneers’
licenses — should be challenged in court.
The reason the Board is mistaken is simply this: If I
sell stuff on an Internet auction, I am not conducting an
auction; I am consigning stuff to an auction that is
being conducted by someone else. The same holds if I give
the stuff to another person who, for a commission, consigns
it to an Internet auction for me. That person is not
conducting an auction: he is consigning the stuff to
an auction conducted by someone else.
I think it is easier to understand this if you forget about the Internet and think about it in terms of a "live" auction.
Example: Suppose I want to sell my great-grandmother’s
rare Beanie Baby. I take it to Snarlwood Antique Center
where the proprietor agrees to sell it for me for a mutually
agreeable commission. This is done all the time, and I’m
sure even the Board would agree that Snarlwood does not
require an auctioneer’s license as long as it doesn’t
auction my Beanie.
Now supposed that Snarlwood takes my Beanie Baby and consigns
it to be sold at auction by Richard
Blithington at his auction barn. While Blithington is
obviously required to have a license, it is equally obvious
that Snarlwood is not, because Snarlwood is not conducting
an auction but is consigning to an auction
conducted by Blithington.
Now I realize that this would be a strange arrangement,
because I could have taken my Beanie directly to
Blithington, bypassing Snarlwood and saving myself an
extra commission fee. So why would this happen?
Maybe, after the Beanie Baby sat at Snarlwood unsold
for years, Snarlwood decided that Blithington had a better
clientele for Beanie Babies. Maybe Blithington hates
me and refuses to accept consignments from me, so I used
Snarlwood as an intermediary to preserve my anonymity.
Whatever the reason for this strange arrangement, it is
not really important because it does not change the legality
of the situation. The law only requires people
conducting auctions to have auctioneers’ licenses.
Now think about Internet auctions in view of my example.
Who is conducting the auction? Various Internet
auction companies. Where is the auction taking place?
In "Cyberspace", whatever that means. I really don’t know
the answers to these questions, and they don’t really
matter. What does matter is that people who consign stuff
to Internet auctions are not conducting auctions; they
are only consigning stuff to auctions conducted by
someone else. Of course, if Eboy is considered to be
conducting auctions in New Hampshire, then Eboy would
need a license.
Jim Clapp did raise some interesting issues in his editorial
in your last issue, even though the point that I am
making in this letter seems not to have occurred to him.
And yes, of the three solutions he proposed to this
controversy, I favor abolishing the licensing of auctioneers.
But that’s another letter.
Brad Dorsey,
Hopkinton, NH
Tuesday, August 24 To: Gavel96@worldpath.net
The Great To-Be-Or-Not-To-Be-An-Internet-Auctioneer
Scandal of 1999
As all sellers on eBay do, we pay commissions to eBay
for items sold. eBay conducts the auction. Thus, eBay,
though not a person, "engages in this state in the real,
personal or mixed property by auction," the Board of
Auctioneer’s reference to the definition of an auctioneer.
Since selling on eBay expedites turnover of inventory,
we now spend at auction 4 times that which we did in our
pre-eBay days when we only sold in shop. Selling on eBay
is a boon to our New Hampshire auctioneers--and now
they want to make it more difficult for us to sell? We
would be happy to simply cease buying from those who
have a problem with our attempts to make a living in
this manner.
Lest our point be lost--sellers on eBay are not auctioneers.
If we are all going to throw terms around loosely,
sellers on eBay are more like consignors: Our items are
being sold FOR us BY eBay.
Selling on eBay is time-consuming and legitimate work,
but we would never presume to call ourselves
"auctioneers." We take photographs and load them to the
internet. We type in codes and descriptions and if
we’re lucky enough to have a sale, ultimate- ly, we package
and mail items. Any auctioneer who mistakenly
believes that these activities an auctioneer makes, has
little regard for his own profession and no understanding
of ours.
----Mr. and Mrs. Andrew Comendul
Manic Depression Antiques/Antiques of the Depression Era
To: gavel96@worldpath.net
Hello,
I having been hearing all about the issue of selling at
auction over the internet. I am a single mother of two, trying very hard
to support myself and my children. I have always been involved in
antiques and even rented space at a
local group shop, but never made a substantial amount
of money. When my spouse left us, the first thing I did was purchase a
computer, took classes on how to use it and racked my brain to find a way
to support myself and not have to be away from my children. On-line actions
was my solution. I still do not make that much money, but it is enough
to support us and I can be with my kids. I do this full-time and
work very hard. I have given up purchasing at local auctions because it
is too time consuming and most of the goods were damaged. Even if I could
squirm through the crowds to inspect items, I never had a chance to really
look them over well. I do 95% of my purchasing from group shops and they
are very happy to see me every week. I feel that I am acting as a middle
man. On-line auctions have increased sales for antique dealers. I
have become a picker for everyone out there who sits it front of their
computer to purchase antiques. And most of these people are too far away
to travel to NH to buy them themselves. If the State of NH continues to
reject change and progress I will move elsewhere. I already pay too much
in property taxes!
Thank you for covering this issue and please continue
to do so.
Name Withheld by Request
To: Gavel
Subject: NH Board of Auctioneers
I have been expecting some form of action by the NH Board
of Auctioneers on online auctions as have you and
many others.
It has been obvious that individuals who offer property of others at online auctions have been circumventing the major intent of NH and most state’s auction laws - protection of the consignor. The primary reason auctioneers are licensed and bonded is the fact that they can be holding large sums of money which belong to consignors. The enforcement actions of the Board which gain major attention are those regarding payments to consignors. A agent who assists in online auctions should be subjected to the same bonding and recordkeeping requirements as an auctioneer.
This position by the board is consistent and to be expected.
The other aspect of the board’s positions is far more
problematic. It deals with the intent of a dealer when purchasing merchandise.
Who is to say whether an antique purchased by a dealer was purchased for
sale at
auction, sale in a shop or to remain in a dealer’s personal
collection. Dealers can in fact change their minds. Do you have to own
it for a year, a month or a day before you have the right to auction it?
If you place it
in a shop and it doesn’t sell, do you need an auctioneer’s
license to offer it on ebay? Is the plumbing supplier who goes out of business
and wishes to auction his remaining inventory barred from doing so because
it was
purchased for resale. It is not clear to me what the
intent of this position is.
Is it consumer protection for buyers? Is it auctioneer
protection? Does it violate the interstate commerce
provisions of the constitution? Is it okay if the buyer
is not in NH?
Arguments about whether auctioneers should be required
to have special skills to offer items for online auction
are irrelevant to this debate, and perhaps to NH Auction
Rules. As far as I can tell, auction law and
regulation is focused on creating an honest environment
for sales. It is not designed to guarantee everyone the
highest quality auction or the highest possible price.
Not all auctioneers are created equal. Not every seller in the
online auctions can present an item in the best possible
manner, but the goals of the online auction managers are
to keep the knowledge and skills required to a minimal
level making this a mass sales channel.
Harvey Schlesinger
------------------------------
Visit the-forum, a www site with news, calendars, and
directories as well as an Online Antique Mall and Art
Gallery http://www.the-forum.com
TO: gavel96@worldpath.net
Hi,
What is the problem of selling items on the internet?
You mentioned ebay in the article about placing items on
that web site and the legalities of doing so in the state
of New Hampshire.
First of all ebay, Amazon.com,Yahoo, and Worldpath.net
to name some auction web pages are the actual
auctioneers of the items. A person listing on the internet
pays fees to the auction company and the auction
company will list the item for sale. If an item sells,
the seller pays a fee to the auction company.
Selling on the internet may be easy. All a person needs
is a valid credit card, a registered screen name and
password. The auction company sets up the initial registration.
The auction house may be out of state. I can't see what
the problem is to sell one's product at an out of state
auction house or to a local auctioneer.
Basically the "sellers" are consignors since the fees are charged by the company not by the consignor.
It would be a lot different if I decided to open my own
auction page in New Hampshire and charged fees to sell an
item. Then the State of New Hampshire should step in
if I wasn't licensed to be an auctioneer.
At times I put items up for bid for others at live auctions
because the persons can not be physically present to do
so and I charge fees to cover the fees in the auction
where the item was placed, transportation costs, and packing
of the item if needed.
The question is am I an auctioneer or an agent for the person for who I am dealing with?
In this case the auctioneer gets their fee; The buyer
gets their property; The seller gets their money; and the
agent collects a fee for selling property .
What is the difference to list an item on an internet
auction house or have an item placed into an actual auction? I
would like to have a clear answer to that.
I personally deal on ebay. They are a registered company
and they are fair with the fees they charge. Also they
offer services to the buyer and seller on bidding, selling,
listing, and fees more than the actual auctioneer would
tell at the time of auction.
If you are interested check out some of these auction
pages. I tried some of the smaller pages and I found out it
was a waste of time because the market was not there
for potential customers, just compare Worldpath to the
other well known auction houses.
Respectfully yours,
Wilfred Morrison